Monday, July 18, 2011

Be A Man





Ok so this has all the makings of a “Pile On Scott” post but I’m going to go for it anyways. So one of the topics we sometimes brush up against is the issue of straight guys perspective on gay men. And I know some of you gay guys have been victimized by asshole straight guys. So let me give you my take on this. I honest don’t think it’s the sex. I’m serious. I don’t think most straight guys give a shit how you get off. I think the thing that makes some gay guys targets is the level of femininity (wow looks like that’s really a word!) that a guy carries himself. I think if a guy looks like a guy and acts like a guy no one cares what you do in your bedroom. I think it’s the guys who act more like your sister than your brother that are targets for getting picked on.  So it’s not really “gay” bashing it’s feminine bashing.  Straight guys jump in here if my head is completely up my ass.

41 comments:

  1. I hope that you realize that someone is going to say where your head has been since day one.

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  2. Your head is up your ass, Scott

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  3. As a straight guy i have to agree and disagree with Scott. I think straight guys can use femininity as a stereotypical means of identifying gay guys and giving them a hard time. In the same way that a feminine straight guy can be called 'fag' all through high school just because of his mannerisms. I think the sad reality is that as long as people continue to care more about what others are doing rather than focusing on their owns lives there will always be a**holes who give others a hard time just for being different. I agree it's not necessarily the sex thing or the feminimity thing or the religious beliefs or political beliefs, it has more to do with low self esteem and fear of anything different from ourselves.

    Ben

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  4. You go Ben. Str8 guys are threatened by feminine acting gay guys because of what they fear in themselves. The swagger can mask insecurities that lie beneath the surface.

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  5. Total honesty here... Scott has it right. I don't care what guys do behind closed doors, but in public act like a guy. Quit all the prissy bullshit, and the gay lisp talk. That absolutely makes me sick. I want to get my rocks off too, but not with someone that acts like a queen. Those are the gays that become targets from straight guys.
    Now bring on the hate.

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  6. One of the most effeminate guys in my high school was straight and on the football team. No one had the nerve to pick on him.

    I wasn't effeminate, just uncoordinated when it came to most sports, and after two fights in middle school, the other guys left me alone because I fought back.

    A couple of the other kids that got harassed weren't effeminate either, just different. And the jocks backed off when those kids fought back when the bullying became physical.

    Your theory doesn't hold water.

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  7. If a straight guy and a str acting gay guy went for the same job, and the str acting gay guy said, I'm gay. I'll bet you that the straight guy gets the job. I would also bet that a str acting gay guy, once found out he is gay, would probably lose his job.
    Another thing, there are feminine acting guys who are straight. The macho guy. He always has to be macho. He would not dare have a str acting gay friend or dare have a straight feminine guy as a friend. That would threaten the macho guy's image. It's all in the pecking order.
    There are gay judges, lawyers, doctors, bus drivers, pilots, teachers, professors, policemen, bankers, clerks, and there are servicemen defending this country who are gay. There is nothing gay about being gay, nothing. It is one struggle after another. I would not wish it upon anyone, but I will defend it.
    I don't know if you have ever seen the show, Glee. There is a fella who plays the macho football player, and he is deep in the closet. Well, there are guys out there just like that fella.
    I guess it comes down to the pecking order, and I have always wondered about those that do the pecking. What are they hiding? What are they afraid of?
    bj
    p.s. Applause to Ben! 8.45a.m.

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  8. I'm sorry but this is the most ignorant thing I have heard all day... The bottom line is that you shouldn't summaries by saying 'straight' guys because most people straight or other don't go around beating someone up for being different, people who do that are homophobic ignorant assholes and are nothing short of criminals that should be charged for committing a violent crime.

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  9. Absolutely right Scott. Men are men as long as they look and act masculine. As a straight/bi-curious guy, I have learned that most of the gay guys I see/talk to are very masculine - more so even than most straight guys I know. That was a suprise to me. Society brainwashes us to think all gay guys are feminine.

    Being masculine involves behaviour patterns, looks, desires, attiude. There are things common to all men regardless of gay/straight/bi. Men want strong bodies and strong minds. We want sex, and we don't care about cuddling and foreplay and shit. Our drive for sex is animal. It's driven by testosterone. We want sex spontaneously. We like sweaty, grunting, raw, caveman, blow-your-load, pound-your-chest sex regardless of who it's with. This is our breeding.

    For most of the history of mankind I think sex was sex. The concept of the gay/straight dichotomy is not that old in relative terms. It is perpetuated by most religions, but people are starting to wake up.

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  10. Why would anyone who was secure in their maleness or sexuality care if a person was gay, bi, effeminate or masculine? Bullies and bashers bully and bash because they are insecure and confused within themselves. If two straight acting gay guys were walking down the street holding hands or kissed, do you honestly think the homophobes would look at them and go, "Cool," because they were masculine? Where do you come up with this shit? LOL

    MM

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  11. old Bob says...
    I think that Scott is right, and wrong. The difference is more nuanced than straight-acting vs feminine. First off I would like to recommend retiring the term "straight-acting" it implies that you, gay and straight, are all acting. It would be better to think of it as masculine. The other point is that some gay men are not feminine, they are effeminate. Do masculine gay men have it easier in our society? Most definitely, our society denigrates effeminate behavior in the same way it denigrates women, all part of the same attitude that devalues or despises anything associated with the feminine, like cuddling and foreplay and shit.
    Do people care what masculine men do behind closed doors? Most definitely. If you are a big rough masculine man, they may not challenge you to your face, out of some sense that they could be harmed, but don't delude yourself that all your masculinity is winning you a free pass to play on the other team. You can be the captain of the football team, but if you have a dick in your mouth you're still a fag.

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  12. Okay straight guys. I'm a str8 woman and fairly feminine. I have had more str8 men cry in my bed than I have EVER cried in theirs. And I've had more than one very manly man show up an my doorstep because they wanted to be held and comforted more than they wanted sex. You judge other guys by what they TELL you....its not always the whole truth

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  13. Sigh. (I know, that was really gay.) But this whole "feminine" acting guys get picked on more, is, to me, a form of misogyny. Because aside from "fag", one of the worst things you can call a man is a "pussy". Or to say "You throw/run/act like a girl!" It's pretty simple, really. Sorry to sound like some Women's Studies/Queer Theory student, but that's all it is. "Me man. Act like man! You man. Act like man!"

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  14. There's a trial going on right now in California, the killing of student Lawrence King. His killer (another student) was being teased, pursured by King, who was telling him he loved him, flirting with him. Lawrence had taken to wearing makeup and some women's clothing. His killer took a gun to school (in Oxnard CA) and shot Lawrence in the back of the head. Lawrence "challenged" the killer's masculinity, in front of his peers and he says the pressure got to him. All this happened on a campus, at a time when boys and girls are exploring, defining, questioning their sexuality.
    The trial is currently ongoing, it was moved from Oxnard due to publicity.

    Many questions arise from this, but one fact is clear: this tragedy has affected two families (at least). On opposite ends of the spectrum there will be those who say (and there will be), he deserved it and those who say Lawrence did not deserve to die.
    Artful1

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  15. In my opinion and experience, a lot of the people who bash effeminate guys are the same guys who are insecure about themselves. Let the guys be who they are. Who are you to judge them. That kind of stuff, while seemingly innocent, leads to things like hate crimes.
    Someone already brought up the misogyny idea, so I won't go into that.
    Myself, I'm a guy who is dating another guy who identifies as "nonbinary". So yeah, I'm dating one of those "sissy guys". It sickens me how much crap he gets from other guys because they believe it makes him less of a man. If anything, I think his courage to be himself makes him more of a man than practically anyone else I know.

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  16. When I was growing up I did all I could to act like a man. Sometimes I succeeded... Other times not so much. Luckily it was the 80's so just about everyone was doing something nelly. I dont like to hang out with really fem guys but I've spent plenty of time with masculine gay guys who are still plenty detectable just not annoying. It's not that your gay, I just can't stand that kind personality. Nothing to be done about it we just lead separate lives. I don't much care for gender confusing people. Has nothing to do with who you love or get a BJ from.

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  17. Unforturnately effeminate guys get a bad rap whether they are gay or not. Most bucks want fellow bucks to act like they think a buck should act. Another turn off for most straights is the public display of affection. Holding hands, kissing in public squeezing a hot ass and other foreplay activities should be limited to private settings. Gay pride activities cause more harm than good.

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  18. A couple of weeks ago, Scott mentioned as to how pictures are being taken and winding up on the net. It looks to me, that some of the pictures are not staged.
    bj

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  19. I'm a masculine gay guy. Im masculine enough that when I started to tell my male friends I was gay they didn't believe me. Since telling them, about half of them have stopped talking to me. Masculinity may be the issue for some straights, but not all.

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  20. i've found in forty-seven years, forty-two of them as a gay kid/man, that the loudest detratctors and the most physical aggressors are the ones most afraid of what they feel inside themselves. they target us as though we are the mirror image they sense, and by bullying/attacking us, they are destroying the mirror.

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  21. You should also know that "feminine" gay men are often victimized just as much by "straight acting" gay men as anyone else. The problem goes deeper than insecure males picking on males more insecure than themselves. And many fem guys can't do anything about it. They've been batting their eyes and talking with their limp wrists and hands ever since they learned to talk. That high pitched voice may be perfectly natural. When we can ignore the pug-ugly, socially inept straight guys in our midst but not tolerate the guy at the other end of the spectrum we're talking bigotry plain and simple and it shouldn't matter who you or they are stickin it to!

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  22. To the straight anon woman who posted at 10:26 AM, I want to know what you're doing to these men in bed that's making them cry. The only way I'd cry is if I was begging for more. Bet it's HOT!

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  23. Lol, you can rationalize it all you want, but most studies of bullying have found that most bullies are acting out their own feelings of insecurity and inadequacies and that the victims were not the cause of the bullying, just the most convenient target.
    C'mon Scott, let's evolve a little bit more...

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  24. Men, gay or straight come in all sizes and styles. Forever, if you could pass as straight you would, so all gay men seemed to be effeminate. If you were, you owned it or you died because of it.
    Times have changed? Now you can be what you want. Women do. Can men?

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  25. Some random thoughts. 1) Just think abt the idea of passing and feminine-presenting males; that gay men can pass if they act like men -- but black ppl can't, or hardly. A way to fit/blend in. 2) Men are in general in conflict abt what they see as a feminine side. 3) Some sissies emphasize sissiness b/c it's brave and in your face. You're SUPPOSED to not like it. (Some or few, not all, okay?) 4) Extreme masculine presentation, 100 p/c real man can be associated with harshly repressed and fear of certain, uh, feelings. 4) Watch the Sex in the City (gay!) episode on gay straight men and straight gay men. 5) Old American saw: I don't care what you do 'slong as you don't scare the horses.

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  26. Anon 9:32. OK, I hate you. Not sure why you asked, but I try to please.

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  27. Anonymous 11.55pm
    They weren't your friends to begin with. Unfortunately, it happens to a lot of people who come out to their so called friends.
    I remember one time several years ago, when a guy was knocking gays. I said to him, if you were in a car accident and badly hurt and in need of a doctor, would you refuse help from a gay doctor? The guy shut up.
    bj
    p.s. Don't be surprised if some of those so called friends and still friends aren't thinking of what it would be like to bed you. The people of the world are becoming more curious.

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  28. Just in the news today, an "admittedly and noticeably effeminate BUT heterosexual man" was denied giving blood. This happened in Gary, Indiana. Apparently, he "appeared to be homosexual." The stigma of "gay" continues...
    Artful1

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  29. Anon 9:32. I pretty much agree with you word for word.
    As for those that say guys beat up effeminate guys because of their own insecurities, I'd say that isn't completely true. I'm not insecure at all about being gay. I'm very secure in my lifestyle, and am very masculine. But I can't stand even being around the so called queens. I'm not sure what causes a guy to be limp-wrested and talk like a teenage girl. All I know is something ain't right there.
    I'm not going to bother those guys, but I do agree it's really strange!

    BostonBob

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  30. Anon 1:55, I am a very masculine gay guy and when I told my male friends they didn't all believe me, but they are all still my friends.

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  31. Rubber City,
    I think it had less to do with my mad skills than being in a safe, supportive environment. Everyone has highs and lows no matter man or woman, gay or straight. Too few people have the opportunity to safely and without judgement let go.

    Straight guys are probably the least expert on the subject because, with few exceptions, they don't see each other in those circumstances. And self reporting about what happens behind closed doors is notoriouslyt inaccurate...

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  32. Drag queens were the primary force in standing up to the New York City police force that initiated the "Stonewall Riots" in 1969. Again, this in 1969, which was really unheard of at that time. The Stonewall Riots have been credited with starting the modern gay movement. So, the fact that we can speak, at all, with some sense of freedom,can be DIRECTLY attributed
    to the courageous actions of those drag queens.
    Courage, to be who you are. Thank you to those drag queens, who have bigger "cojones" than many so-called "masculine" men. I will be a better man when I look at who you are, what your values are, and how you treat your fellow man and disregard the rest.
    Artful1

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  33. There was recently a study published where they took straight men who identified as not homophobic and ones who did and showed them gay porn where they had sensors around the penis to measure arousal. "Arousal" doesn't necessarily mean that the guys got fully hard, but maybe just plumped up a bit. The study showed that the guys who identified as homophobic also showed signs of arousal, while the guys who were not homophobic showed no arousal. Some statements repeated by others here say the same thing, that the homophobes are the one who fear something inside themselves... they hate that they find it a turn-on (though the study showed that none of the homophobes admitted to arousal) and take it out on the guys who are bringing these rejected feelings to the surface... which tends to be the gay guys who are the most identifiable, the effeminate ones.

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-big-questions/201106/homophobic-men-most-aroused-gay-male-porn

    There are other prior studies that show the same results.

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  34. BostonBob says: "I'm very secure in my lifestyle, and am very masculine. But I can't stand even being around the so called queens. I'm not sure what causes a guy to be limp-wrested and talk like a teenage girl. All I know is something ain't right there."

    The "something" that "ain't right there" is your own prejudice.

    So what "causes" you to be "very masculine"? Good lord, it's the same argument bigoted heterosexuals use when they start preaching about how homosexuals "choose" to be gay, but can't answer why they "chose" to be heterosexual.

    And as Anonymous (10:55) pointed out, it was those so-called limp-wristed talking-like-teenage-girls queens who had the balls to stand up to the police harassment in 1969, so "very masculine" queers like you could hide behind your "masculinity."

    And let's face it, to many straights, if you suck dick, you're a fag, no matter how "masculine" you are.

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  35. BostonBob: Up for an experiment? Mimic the limp wrist etc that you don't like; treat it like a role. How do you feel doing it?

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  36. Scott was making an observation and once again the crowd turns it into an argument over what should be, versus what is.

    Feminine gay guys get picked on in high school. Anyone who is the least bit different in high school gets picked on.

    Lots of guys struggle with being gay at that age and are unlikely to be targets because they're just another guy in the crowd.

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  37. Am I surrounded by a bunch of Liberals here? (never mind, I know I am). THIS IS A FALSE DICHOTOMY.......Like the man who argues that lower tax people want NO taxes, you guys are arguing that a man is either macho or limp wristed. Most of us fall somewhere in the middle. Most of us are soft muscled and a bit overweight...kind of like eunuchs. Give it a rest. ANYBODY who calls attention to his sexuality should expect a response. The problem is that so many people respond negatively to the stereotype. I suspect that will only be fixed over time.

    AB

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  38. I pick on you as a means to strengthen MY OWN social bonds with my group. The more different you are from my group, i.e. the perceived normal, the easier I can reinforce those alignments. The brand of different is unimportant.

    Gays can marginalize the issue, as we often do, by theorizing about the driving forces behind why we get picked on but the reward for picking on us is identical to the reward gained from picking on the band geek. And I don't think those that do are trying to suppress a secret desire to play the saxophone.

    Scott's theory is correct because effeminate men challenge widely adopted ideas associated with male behavior. We can place value on that but I think that misses the point. Introduce anything that challenges widely adopted ideas of “normal,” and you’ll achieve a similar result.

    For example, a gay dude who’s more interested in the Yankees than say, Glee or Lady Gaga. Gay men can be equally swift in their alignments.

    And while the root of this form of socialization can be traced back to the sandbox, I’m confident you’ll find evidence of the same measures all the way up to the boardroom.

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  39. Scott, you are 100% correct. ... Guys should be whoever they NATURALLY are - be who you are. But you guys who are defending the fems, why is it that those femmy guys AFFECTUATE a lisp? I HATE that. It's like they gotta PROVE they're different. Give it a rethhhhtt.

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  40. Scott,
    Thanks for asking all the questions that are taboo. It is not in knowing all the right answers that makes one wise, but rather, knowing all the right questions. Ask away buddy!

    Secondly, there's a lot of speculation as to why and what would happen and blah blah blah. I can only tell you in my experiences I have felt both kinds of prejudice. When I was growing up I received a lot of shit for being very fem. That was something I never liked about myself. Some people told me to br who I was but I felt like the fem was my mom's mannerisms superimposed on me and not me. I'm a man born with testosterone so why don't I act like it? I found out after a few years trying that acting masculine and being masculine are two different things. I had girlfriends and everyone knew I was straight but I was treated HORRIBLY growing up, by bullies, teachers, adults, kids, my own brother. Being a pacifist by nature didn't help.

    When I reclaimed my masculinity and became at peace with my own homosexual desires, I lost all that criticism from those people. My religious friends and family disowned me for being in the gaylationship I am in now.

    So I've presented myself as a fem straight guy and a masculine gay guy and have received flack for both: but from two completely different sets of people. The worst of it in my experience was from fem bashing, not gay bashing.

    On that note: I've claimed a more universal masculinity as opposed to America's version of it. And also, I got over my drag queen phobia the more comfortable I became with myself. I've even done of once, Haha!

    Find your own style of masculinity. Screw everyone else's opinion.

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